Martin (1977)

[00:00:03] Speaker A: Welcome, listener, to the return slot, a. [00:00:07] Speaker B: Horror. [00:00:13] Speaker A: A podcast recorded in the basement of a video store. After hours, when the doors are locked, the DHS are rewound, and the moon is glowing pale blue on a brisk and breezy night, we like to hang out in the basement, crack open a drink, and discuss our beloved genre, horror. Every episode, we invite you to join us for a drink in the basement as we discuss a film selected from one of our painstakingly curated subsections of the video store. Mickey, do you care to elaborate upon this for the uninitiated? [00:00:46] Speaker B: Sure. For those that maybe didn't grow up in the there were these amazing independent video rental stores, and what was so great about them was that if you got to know the staff, they would recommend their picks and they would curate sections within the store that weren't just as simple as new hit movies or action or horror. No, they were like specific sections curated with a certain genesis qua. And here at the return slot of horror, we are keeping that tradition alive by being an independent video store that's curating sections for you and we bring you down our journey as we go through our different sections that we have. I'm going to say curated one more time because. [00:01:34] Speaker A: Season three premiere. [00:01:35] Speaker B: It's been a while before we start, I was looking for the thing I wrote in season two. I was like looking for it. I could not find it. I was like, I'll wing it. I'll be fine. But yeah, really lost gas about halfway through. [00:01:50] Speaker A: I appreciate. [00:01:51] Speaker B: Welcome to the return slot. Welcome to the return slot. [00:01:54] Speaker A: This week we find ourselves in the sex, lies and bloody napes section of the video store. [00:02:02] Speaker B: I like it. Yeah. [00:02:03] Speaker A: Deep, deep cut there. Deep cut. Tonight is not only our season three premiere, but an appetite to our Halloween episodes. Because everyone knows Halloween isn't a day or a month, but a season that starts very lightly in August and increases with spooky intensity throughout September until its bloody abdominal climax in the holiest of months, October. Tonight, we are joined by our returning guest, Chris. Chris, it's so lovely to have you in the basement. [00:02:39] Speaker C: Oh, thank you for having me back. I feel like I've moved in. I feel like I've made myself really at home. Don't make me leave. I'll fight. [00:02:51] Speaker A: Were just before we started recording, we were talking about how Chris has had three different people, one of them is me, have asked you, Chris, to punch them because they have never been punched. There's something about you that's like you're like a circus. [00:03:15] Speaker C: Okay, all right. [00:03:16] Speaker A: You're very entertaining and cute, but don't be mistaken, you're very dangerous. [00:03:22] Speaker B: I see. [00:03:23] Speaker C: And I also wear that little red hat and ride around the little tricycle car. [00:03:27] Speaker A: Yes, you do. This is very cute. [00:03:29] Speaker B: That also adds to it. [00:03:34] Speaker A: Before we get to tonight's film on this beautiful, I got to tell the weather outside is great tonight. It's finally brisk and breezy. And I know you guys, you're normal people, so you basically wait until October 1. But I really start out as lightly as I can in August, and these episodes will be coming out in September. So I'm just so excited right now to be talking about the film we're going to be talking about. But before we get to that, what are we drinking tonight, guys? [00:04:13] Speaker B: Mickey. Well, I am drinking a tall glass of red wine. I was going to do something more Pittsburgh centric, but you're going to get a lot of Pittsburgh in this. So for my drink, I keep it very simple, very vampier, with some red wine. Dark red wine. [00:04:33] Speaker A: And Chris, do you have a spooky cocktail this evening? [00:04:36] Speaker C: Yeah, I made up a little something. I'm going to call it Cuda's delight. It's an ounce and a half of St. Germain, an ounce and a half of a good vodka on a rock with a couple of marischino cherries. Tear it up by hand. Do not use a knife. You tear it up by hand, put it on the bottom, add a little soda water and put it on a nice big ice cube and you got yourself a little floaty bloody mess there. And actually, if you really want to be fun, you can take a couple hypodermic plungers and you can fill them with a little marishino liqueur and you can float it in there, which actually, while you guys were closing the shop, I made you a couple. So if you guys could just take these and drink them while I watch, that'd be great. [00:05:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I feel like it's drugged and I feel like, no, it's been safe. [00:05:30] Speaker C: Since I started using the needles. [00:05:31] Speaker B: Gotcha. Okay, good. Yeah, that's good. [00:05:34] Speaker A: It's much safer that way. [00:05:36] Speaker B: To even make it a little bit more of a geographical location for the film, you could use Boyd and Blair vodka, which is a distillery in Pittsburgh. That would be a good little addition. Nice. [00:05:49] Speaker C: Boyd and Blair. [00:05:50] Speaker B: You said Boyd and Blair? Yep. [00:05:52] Speaker C: Yeah. Delicious. [00:05:53] Speaker B: Delicious. [00:05:54] Speaker A: Hopefully sponsored soon by Boyd and Blair. [00:05:57] Speaker B: Oh, once. Once they hear this episode, they go ahead. [00:06:05] Speaker A: You're not going to ask me like a gentleman, I got to shove it down the listener's throat. [00:06:10] Speaker B: No, I want you to. Come on. Come on. You're piloting this ship. [00:06:13] Speaker C: Come on. Hey, captain, what you drinking? [00:06:18] Speaker A: I am having Braddock. Pennsylvania or Pittsburgh? Braddock. [00:06:24] Speaker B: Pittsburgh. [00:06:25] Speaker A: Basement wine. [00:06:27] Speaker B: Braddock basement wine. That's amazing. [00:06:30] Speaker A: It's table wine made in the basement of hardworking immigrants. It's something a priest would enjoy, but it's not the fanciest of wines. [00:06:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Nice. Father Howard approved. [00:06:48] Speaker A: Father Howard approved. We're getting there. Oh, yeah. So that brings up all this talk of needles and Father Howard. Tonight we are talking about George Romero and company's fifth feature film, the underseen 1977 masterpiece, Martin. Claimed by Romero himself as his favorite film. Martin tells the story of the very confused, shy, and seeming sweet young man who just wants you to go to sleep. Freak, rapist, asshole, or misunderstood, alienated, adolescent antihero. [00:07:30] Speaker B: We're. [00:07:30] Speaker A: We're going to dive into this and find out tonight. Okay, so why are we talking about Martin, and what are our histories with the film? Long pause. [00:07:48] Speaker C: Dead air. [00:07:49] Speaker A: Dead air. Dead air. I feel like I'm talking to myself. That was an invitation for someone to jump in and be like, well, Michelangelo. [00:08:00] Speaker B: You tell us, why did you choose Martin? This is kind of your pick. This is kind of your. You threw this out there. Just tell us why, and then I'll tell you my history with it. [00:08:07] Speaker A: Because you're a part of fantastic. So Martin. Martin is one of my favorite films, and George Romero is one of my favorite directors. I often say Romero and company because his films are like watching an extremely talented local community theater company's productions. As we all know, the performing arts, in this case, film is a collaborative medium, and often we give credit or blame to individuals such as the director, the writer, the star. But in reality, it's a vast group of artists and technicians that come together to create the impossible. So that's something I will always appreciate and feel and see when I watch his films, especially in Martin. The other reason is I can't help but relate and sympathize with that. [00:09:07] Speaker B: We'll mind that, because I feel the same way. I don't want you to go too far. [00:09:11] Speaker A: Oh, no, I'm not going to. I'm not going to. We're definitely going to mind this, but it's like, great. I can't help but relate and sympathize with a very problematic protagonist who I don't condone what he's doing. He's doing evil things. He's killing people. He's sexually assaulting them. To what degree? We'll discuss. But it makes me reflect upon, like, well, why do I sympathize? Does this say something negatively about me? So I wanted to rewatch this again because I love watching it, and then sort of explore those things with two other intelligent, talented, beautiful people to sort of understand myself more and understand the story that they're telling. That's. That's my. And as far as my history with, uh, when we started this podcast, about a year before I saw Martin for the first time on a YouTube channel, it's hard to find. It's easier now. People are talking about it more now, but I had no idea that Romero made this film, and I was blown away by it. I was completely and utterly surprised and fell in love with it. In previous episodes. We've talked about our relationship with Romero films. We're not going to get into that, but I do think having a relationship with Romero makes this an easier watch. This can be a lot of someone. This could be a lot to ask of someone, especially now with a majority of filmgoers seeming to want uncomplicated protagonists, and especially being like, we're three men talking about a film that has depictions of sexual assault. So it's definitely a hard ask for my partner, Allie, to ask her, who has no relationship with, like, watch this movie, because it starts out right with a very realistic and awful. That's why. That's why I needed to talk about this tonight. [00:11:41] Speaker C: Real quick, if I can just interject. You wanted a free therapy session, and you like this movie, right? [00:11:46] Speaker A: That's what the podcast is. The podcast is therapy for me. So thank you, listener, for listening to me. Sure. [00:12:01] Speaker B: My history with it goes to you. So what people may or may not know, if you've listened to all the episodes, I'm sure you picked up on it, but there are some missing episodes. There were early in the early days. We recorded a couple, actually quite a few episodes that have never seen the light of day. And this is one of them. We did this early on, and that was my first time watching it was when we did that recording. And I just kind of want to set, if I can, where the world was when we did that. The movement was at its height. Yeah. And you asked me to watch a movie called Martin, and then let's discuss it in depth, like in the following, like two days or something. It was something where it was like, I don't know. I have enough time to process all this. And I remember going out of that and being like, oh, man, I really have to talk about this. And there are things about this film that instantly I adore, which is the George Romeroness of it, the braddockness of it. It just oozes Pittsburgh, especially a Pittsburgh in a time that is very special in Pittsburgh's history in the 1970s. So that part of it just automatically hooks me in. But I really struggled with the subject matter and what I was then thinking, I had to talk about, because I had not processed this. Just as in the world of, like, it was a lot, I'll be honest, a lot. Yeah. But having now watched this, my third watch, I have a lot more insights and, I think a more intelligent way of approaching this. And I have so many questions for you, because this movie runs a theme of our friendship, and we'll get to it. [00:13:50] Speaker A: What? [00:13:51] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:13:54] Speaker A: Oh, man. [00:13:57] Speaker B: Bombs have been dropped, but we'll get there. We'll get there. Chris, what's your history with it? [00:14:02] Speaker C: Wow. I feel like you guys walked into some big souls and big swings here, and I feel like I'm going to just be a real let down in that. I thought I had seen this movie on a rewatch. I realized that I had not seen all of this movie. I think I had seen the back half of this movie way back when. I remember thinking that it looked, I remember on an original watch of it being kind of dismissive of it. And on a rewatch, we can dive more into feelings, of course, later, but I think my dismissal of it before was quite unfounded. But at the same time, too, it's got a lot of faults and a lot of issues, and I feel like it kind of dives into something that I feel like we see a lot in some of Romero's films and that I think that he makes some big swings, and I don't think he connects with a lot of the things that he swings for, which mean, again, admirable that he's taking the swings at a lot of stuff, but I wish that it was just a little different. But I think that's where you kind of get also into the worlds of possibility that are out there and the versions and that type of thing. But we can get to that later. [00:15:22] Speaker A: Actually, I'd like to go over that real quick, the versions that are out there. So Martin was originally screened at the Cannes film market in 1977. In order to secure a distributor. Libra Films International purchased the rights initially, giving them a limited release in the United States in 1978. So you see, like, there are discrepancies in its release year. Sometimes you'll see 77, sometimes you'll see 78 and then similarly. [00:15:59] Speaker B: Did I say that? Even close. Similarly. [00:16:04] Speaker A: Similarly symbol. I cannot say that word similarly. I've had, like, two sips of wine. [00:16:12] Speaker B: Okay. [00:16:12] Speaker C: Must be some powerful wine. [00:16:15] Speaker A: It's made in a basement very similar to Romero's thought of the dead. Martin was. [00:16:28] Speaker B: Chris's drink. Got you, man. [00:16:30] Speaker A: It got you. [00:16:32] Speaker B: I'm going to find you. [00:16:35] Speaker A: Just go to sleep, Michelangelo, please. Freak. Rapist. It was edited for the european market by Dario Argento, released in 78 under the title vampire. Is that how you would say it? [00:16:52] Speaker C: Or just think so? But it's hilarious. [00:16:55] Speaker A: And it's got a different score. I love the score to this, but it was scored by Goblin. And as I understand it, Chris, you might know more about this, but as I understand it, that score is basically, like a lot of recycled stuff, mostly suspiria. [00:17:10] Speaker C: Goblin recorded no original music for it. So it's all already recorded Goblin music that they used for the score. [00:17:16] Speaker A: Yeah. And it was a video nasty. For those of you unfamiliar with the video nasty, look that up. It's cool stuff. Although if you're listening to this podcast, I would imagine you are already aware of video nasties. And then, as far as home media goes, we have in 1977, a vhs release by HBO canon Video. And then not until 1997, Anchor Bay gets their hands on it and does a release. And then dvd stars anchor Bay in 2000, Lion Gate in 2004. In the UK, Arrowhead video or Arrow video, I'm sorry, released a special edition dvd set in 2010, and then Blu ray 4K Ultra. Unfortunately, we don't have that available to us in the US. But they started in 2021, and in 2023, 2nd sight films released these special editions that if you have a multiregion Blu ray player, you can enjoy the fruits of that labor. I do own the Liongate release from 2004, and it says it's widescreen, but the aspect ratio is off. But it does have some cool special features. It has, like, a mini documentary that was fun to watch and of course, the commentary. [00:18:40] Speaker B: Now, are you aware of the 2020 116 millimeter film they discovered? [00:18:47] Speaker A: Yes. Please explain what that is, because I would love if this actually ever sees the light of day. [00:18:55] Speaker B: Well, now, this is only from what I've read from local news, but it was the night of Living Dead museum in Monroeville, which is incredible. But the night of Living Dead museum, they uncovered a three hour long 16 millimeter cut of the film that's in black and white that they are calling George Romero's definitive director's cut. And I don't know what happened to it from there. But I know that they found it in 21. [00:19:24] Speaker C: I can interject unless if McLaughlin about that. So you can find it out there. It was auctioned, the print. So you can buy the original print you could buy, but you didn't get the rights. And it was sold for 51,200 is what's listed on that auction site, which is a ridiculously small amount of money for it. And supposedly, whoever, the entity, the gentleman, whatever, who bought it, has not announced any plans to let it be released, which is OD. Like, why? [00:19:59] Speaker A: Yeah, that and the Wu Tang album. [00:20:03] Speaker C: Well, that's back in Wu Tang's hands now because of. [00:20:09] Speaker A: We're getting sidetracked. We're getting sidetracked. I want to talk about that, but we're not going to. [00:20:13] Speaker C: Sure. [00:20:16] Speaker A: So yes, there is this two hour, 45 minutes cut. That was all. I'll say this. So Rubenstein, who I don't like all that much for various reasons, if you look into it, I don't want to get into it, but if you look into it, you'll see why a Romero fan might not like Rubenstein, or at least some of the things he's done. He did have Romero cut his film down and put it in color. And I must say I thought it was a good choice. I think this movie, as a fan of the film, of course I want to see a longer version of it, but I appreciate there are some pacing issues throughout the film. And I'm happy that less is more in this situation. And I'm a big fan of that melted crayon fake blood that was like it was stage makeup before. This was before the Dick Smith formula came out, which is the gold standard for on screen blood. It's the same blood they used in dawn of the Dead. I love it. It looks like tomato soup or melted red crayon. I love it. I don't know how you guys feel about it. [00:21:40] Speaker B: Does not bother me at all. [00:21:42] Speaker C: Yeah, indifferent. [00:21:44] Speaker A: So those are the versions of the films out there. And listener, I'm sure you probably watched it on tubi or someone very nice uploaded the 4K Ultra HD version onto YouTube. You can watch it for free without any commercials. You thank God for YouTube because you're able to watch, like, dawn of the Dead and you're able to watch stuff you can't buy for free. I would gladly own them. I would love to own the Blu ray or 4K Ultra HD editions of Martin, but it's like, I can't. I don't have a player for listener. Start sending us money in our Patreon. So I can afford these things. [00:22:38] Speaker B: As part of your patronage, we'll share with you the original. It's, it's, it's interesting. [00:22:47] Speaker C: I do want to interject, though. I would really like to see that director's cut too, because supposedly it does include full frontal male nudity in. [00:22:55] Speaker A: Father Howard, I hope. [00:22:57] Speaker B: I hope. Yeah, maybe Cuda. Oh, yeah. Colonel Sanders looking. [00:23:12] Speaker A: Can you dive a little bit into, as a resident of Pittsburgh, can you dive a little bit into Braddock and its hauntingly beautiful scenery that we get to see in the film? And I think there was, what, the summer of 76? [00:23:34] Speaker B: I believe that it was shot there. Yeah, that time's out. August. I think I read somewhere like it was like August and September was like most of the principal shooting. But yeah. So just a quick kind of like thing about Braddock is it's ten minutes outside of Pittsburgh. It is Pittsburgh. Braddock is a well known steel town that had a massive steel factory. And in its height it had mansions and a shopping center and a hospital and all these. It was a very burgeoning, beautiful community. And then the 60s into about the middle of just got smaller and smaller and smaller as the steel mills left, all the work left. And most of those places that had been established hundreds of years ago were starting to get dilapidated and falling apart. And there was nobody there financially to step in and take care of the buildings and the housing. And really what was left, there were people with few opportunities or people that had set down such routes they couldn't go anywhere. So Braddock is this beautiful rust belt town that in many ways encapsulates the urban decay of so many rust belt towns that know left kind of holding the check for these still barons. And it's so popular that Levi's did a commercial campaign about five or six years ago that was like about the revitalization of Braddock. The Braddock mayor, John Fetterman, is now a us senator. And his big claim to fame was that he has the tattoos of all the people murdered in his town when he was mayor. He wears dicky shirts and like six. Six or something. Yeah, but he was the mayor of Braddock. And it is like tough blue collar beer and shot town that really took a slathering from the steel mills collapsing. And by collapsing, I mean just leaving, departing and leaving workers without any, with nothing. So when you see that and you see him come into Braddock from Indianapolis and they spend that 1st, 15 or so minutes just kind of walking through. They go from Penn Station and then down into the neighborhoods of Braddock, going through the little bridges, train stations and walkways. There's a part of, especially if you're a Pittsburgh, there's a part of it. You're like, this is Braddock. This is Braddock almost at its worst. And they kind of throughout, subtly, they whittle in tiny bits of exposition to tell you what situation was like. Whether know Christina talking with Arthur and she's saying, that's what everyone does. They just sit and watch the game and let things pass by. It's like that's. You go. You watch the Stillers and you just hope that maybe somewhere work will come in. And it was a time of drugs and alcoholism and just like it was a rough time in it. Just when I watch this film, that dressing hovers over the entire film and it makes it so granular from somebody from Pittsburgh because you can actually feel the grittiness of that town. I don't know if it plays off as well for people that don't know that history, but it's really fascinating. And I would recommend, if you have anything that wants you to do with you, even an inkling of wanting to learn about it. The guy who did sound for this film, Tony Booba, he also is in the film as one of the guys on the bikes, the motorcycles. He, in the 1970s, was popular for doing these little short documentary films that, like, werner Herzog saw and was like, oh, I got to put these in the museum in Germany for people to see these little short films of Braddock and the people there and how they're like surviving with nothing. And they are like, I got to look this up. They are moving pieces. They are really great. And then in 88, he did a really popular documentary called lightning over Braddock that kind of, like, cemented him as, like, a pretty well renowned documentarian. But he's in this film and his apartment is used in the film. And he's part of that Romero crew that went on to do amazing things all about one little town and just nestled right next to Pittsburgh, right on the. It's. Yeah, it's beautiful. And it makes the movie just soar for me because they do such a good job of showcasing that part of the city. [00:28:20] Speaker C: I was going to say, I think I read, though, in that Tony Booba in his mom or grandma's house where they shot all the interiors for the family. [00:28:31] Speaker A: There's a 3d Jesus. I don't know if you guys have ever seen this art from the 70s. It's like a three dimensional piece of art that's like a hologram almost that you would have on your trapper keeper, but it was backlit. So the Jesus in the movie, it's in the mini documentary, it's like a Jesus that kind of, like, looks up at you. It's like a bloody Jesus on the cross. And he kind of looks up at you and his eyes follow you. It's fucking creepy and weird, but my mom has one of these. It's like the manger scene. Baby Jesus Christmas. Not creepy. It's actually really kitschy and cute and beautiful. But if you were ever at a thrift store and you see one of these 3d art pieces, you just have to get them. They're fantastic. [00:29:24] Speaker C: Oh, no. Hard pass. [00:29:30] Speaker A: Yeah. My grandfather had this kind of, like, I knew it essentially as a small convenience store that was basically like liquor store, but back when there was a steel mill operating in Kansas City, it was doing gangbusters, and he had, like, amazing produce. And my grandmother, my nanny, would make sandwiches and cook pasta, and the workers would come, and they loved her food, and they were doing really well. And my father, who immigrated to this country, to Chicago, moved to Kansas City. My grandmother got remarried, and my mother got married the same year. And my father went to Kansas City from Chicago because there was going to be this sort of, like, grocery empire that was going to spring up as a result of how well the store was doing. And then the still mill fucking closed down. It's a story. It was the oldest time, and it just became this desolate place that was essentially just a liquor store. And we used to get dropped off there, and we would spend the weekend with them. And it was awesome. But it was like, one of the things that was really good for it was you're growing up in the suburbs, you sort of see what true poverty looks like, what men without work, what happens to them. Right? [00:31:15] Speaker B: Yes. [00:31:17] Speaker A: That's a major theme in this film. Absolutely. I just read grapes of wrath earlier at the beginning of the summer, and it's just like, oh, man. [00:31:28] Speaker B: God. [00:31:31] Speaker A: It'S so tragic when you take away a person's purpose. [00:31:36] Speaker B: Yeah. When there are no opportunities and there's also not the means to chase other opportunities that are happening in other towns, you don't have the means to migrate. It really puts people in a desperate or. [00:31:54] Speaker A: I'm sorry, Chris, did you have anything to add to the sound design elements of the film? [00:32:01] Speaker C: They're wacky. [00:32:07] Speaker B: Okay. [00:32:10] Speaker C: No, thank you. No, I mean, I think that's one of the things that I think that kind of takes me out of the film. And I think, again, kind of goes back to. I think one of the biggest misses is there's these moments that the sound design sounds more akin to an Acme cartoon, like with Wiley Coyote, than it does from a know, even like the time and all that. And then just some OD choices, like for, like, I don't understand. Whenever Martin's calling the radio station and he's in the house, why are they doing that? Delay overlap of that. Please go ahead. [00:32:50] Speaker A: I think it's to express when the DJ is talking directly to Martin off the air. [00:32:59] Speaker B: You know what I mean? [00:33:00] Speaker A: So it's like you hear the relay and then the relay is gone and he's talking directly to Martin. [00:33:06] Speaker C: No, it's the radio conversation they're having. Direct. Well, but if you had a radio on, when you call the radio station, it would be feedback. [00:33:17] Speaker B: Yeah. You have to get away from the. [00:33:18] Speaker C: Radio so you wouldn't be able to hear it. [00:33:26] Speaker A: I know it's illogical. I think what he was attempting to do was like, oh, they're on the radio because you're hearing the repeat. And then like, okay, now he's off the radio and you're hearing him direct, like you're hearing the DJ. Try to appeal to him directly. [00:33:41] Speaker B: That's all. [00:33:41] Speaker A: I'm not saying it was brilliant execution. I think that was the thought. [00:33:46] Speaker B: It's wonky, but it could be a forced perspective where it's like, I could see them saying the problem is the lensing and where they're placing it in the room. If they had pulled the camera back on a long lens and said, in other words, you're like two rooms away and we're seeing him through like a door crack where he's on the phone and you hear it, it almost puts the audience, like, you're far enough away where he wouldn't be creating that feedback and there might be a delay in the radio broadcast. But because he's in the room with Martin doing that, it does create, like a weird. And there are other little things like that with the sound design, which I agree with, where it's like it doesn't. [00:34:21] Speaker A: Really spatially work, I kind of like its. [00:34:27] Speaker C: Personally, I was going to call it too, like the phone noises when he's doing the phone block on the house, it's like, what is curious phone? Is that. [00:34:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Was that authentic to the era, like those sounds? Or was he just like, this sounds cool and I'm trying to get this across. You know what I mean? [00:34:46] Speaker B: Those scenes by the way are like some of the. On the second watch, those are some of the funniest. Like, it was like watching. What were the two comedians back in the old days? We do the ghosts, and there were the two men, Abbot, and was like. It was like Abbot and Costello make the call. I can't remember the number. I forgot the number. [00:35:09] Speaker C: I will say, though, that I do almost enjoy how rough that goes though, too, because it's, I think, much more real for people in panic situations that they're just a disaster piece. You know what I mean? It's not like, sort of clean. Like, oh, go do this. I'll go do that. [00:35:25] Speaker A: The editing in that sequence is fantastic. That's always a strong suit of Romero. I'm a big fan of that segment. [00:35:35] Speaker B: I love it. And I also think that to add to talking about your editing, he does such a good job with geography in that I don't. [00:35:43] Speaker C: Yes, you have a very clean line of where everything is. [00:35:46] Speaker B: You don't have to guess. Like, how did he end up in that room? Where's this room in relation to that room? There's none of that. It's so clean and so well done. I just think it's fun. And I agree with you, Chris. Probably real life is more like that. It's like she died because she couldn't remember the number, that she was just like. I think that is more true. [00:36:07] Speaker A: No, I don't think that's the case in that scene. What's happening is they don't want to get caught. [00:36:14] Speaker B: Yeah, because she's having. Right, right. [00:36:16] Speaker A: So she's trying to dial the number and Martin keeps fucking with the phone. Right. [00:36:23] Speaker B: I literally watched this an hour ago. I full 100% know that that's what's happening. But just there is a humor in the sense that when she goes back, he hangs up on her. She goes back and then she forgets the number. She goes, oh, shit, now I forgot the number. And then she goes back to dial and she's like, well, hold on. And there's a comedy beat in there where it's like, yes, she's being fucked with by Martin because he's on the other line. But it's just funny. It's just a funny, like, I just think it's well written. It's just funny. [00:36:54] Speaker C: I will say two things also to it. One, impressive. They found the most 70s house in the entire. [00:37:00] Speaker A: Yes, I love it. I love the textures and the colors. Oh, boy. When you grow up a little poor, you end up growing up in an environment that is like a decade out of place from your own. So I didn't grow up in, like, an 80s household. I grew up in a 70s household with those types of textures and decorations throughout. [00:37:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Wood paneling. [00:37:33] Speaker A: Wood paneling. Shag carpet. [00:37:34] Speaker B: Like, shag carpet crazy. [00:37:36] Speaker A: Wallpaper patterns and colors. [00:37:41] Speaker B: And her boyfriend, her mister, whatever you want to call him, Lewis. He struck me as what I imagine a 1970s kind of tough guy who's off cheating with this woman. It's like he really had that without having to do anything, necessarily just fit what I think that person would look like. [00:38:08] Speaker A: Let me ask you guys a question. Is the pants hiked up above the belly button, kind of like a comb over? You know what I mean? Yeah, we know what you're doing. We know what you're doing. [00:38:22] Speaker B: No shame. [00:38:23] Speaker A: No shame. [00:38:23] Speaker B: No shame. [00:38:24] Speaker C: It was fit for the 70s. He was great. [00:38:29] Speaker A: He looked, like jacked for the 70s. [00:38:31] Speaker B: He looked like what a football player would have looked like back then. Back then, they weren't pro at the age of 19 and on all these special workout routines, but they were just like regular guys who had a part time job that in the 70s football. [00:38:46] Speaker A: Era, it was like, no protein shakes, beer. Beer, cigarettes, and punching people in the face. [00:38:52] Speaker C: And coke. [00:38:53] Speaker B: Right? Like 30 minutes. We'll go out there. We're going to do a little bit of coke. Little coke. [00:38:56] Speaker A: Little coke. It wasn't so expensive yet. [00:38:58] Speaker B: No, but, yeah, you just asked me and Joe Green about coke, but, yeah. So that's a joke for all those Pittsburgh listeners out there. Yes. [00:39:10] Speaker C: No, I was just going to say real quick, too, and I've got mixed feelings just real quick about that house, too, of like, I think, how in the hell is Martin so good about moving around the house? He sculpted around it, but he's a cat. How would he know that? Inside, interior? But then also, a bit of kudos to what the film is because back in that era, they didn't really quite know how to, I think, accurately portray serial killers, and that serial killers are inept and seem incredibly unable. But then when it comes time, it's impressive. The level of planning and thoroughness they. [00:39:48] Speaker B: Do have to them. [00:39:50] Speaker A: That's something to really consider, is that this is a time before Dahmer, this is a time before all of those things become public and the FBI creates this. What is it? [00:40:06] Speaker C: I would say essentially, yes, but, like, serial killers were big media coverage in the thing was that it was, know, you're never going to guess. There's this guy, and he did this, and he thinks that it wasn't the level of the psychology discussion. [00:40:23] Speaker B: They hadn't gotten there for another see. Did you ever watch Mindhunters? Speaking of. [00:40:30] Speaker A: Keeping, keeping us on target. I'm sorry, Mickey, but Mindhunters? Yes. I'm sorry. You asked me to do this. Speaking of psychology, can I move on? [00:40:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Minehunter, another great Pittsburgh production. [00:40:47] Speaker A: Really? [00:40:48] Speaker C: They shot it all in Pittsburgh? [00:40:49] Speaker B: The majority of it, yeah. I mean, obviously there's stuff they shot in Atlanta as well, but, yeah, they shot a lot of it in Pittsburgh. They shot one scene down the street from my house. It was great. [00:40:57] Speaker A: Oh, shit. [00:40:58] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, it was cool. [00:40:59] Speaker C: Did you try to run into Fincher? [00:41:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, I met. No, no shit. [00:41:05] Speaker A: This is a real story for this. [00:41:06] Speaker B: I met Fincher while I was doing a play in Braddock with, uh, Smith, who's in Mindhunter? Cotter Smith and I were in a play together in. [00:41:19] Speaker C: Cool. [00:41:19] Speaker B: It was called rules of seconds. It was the bare bones black box theater in Braddock, Pennsylvania. The parking lot is one space away from that walking bridge where Martin's carrying the produce. [00:41:32] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [00:41:34] Speaker B: But that's where I did that play. And I met Fincher that night there. Shit. [00:41:39] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:41:39] Speaker B: He came and saw. Very nice. Extremely nice. I thought that I would be so cool and be able to really chew some fat with him, but I couldn't even get a word out. I was just like, nice to meet you, sir. That's, like, the best I did. That's the best. [00:41:55] Speaker C: Call him the finch man. [00:41:59] Speaker B: I thought by the end, we'd have pictures together and I'd have a whole story. But the best I have is just sitting quietly while I talked with Cotter and having. I had, like, one drink with him. And I was like, I can't handle this pressure. Right. Yeah. So, okay, but see, that tied back to Braddock. It tied back to the whole, I'm. [00:42:18] Speaker A: Not upset or anything. [00:42:20] Speaker B: Moving on. [00:42:21] Speaker A: Moving on. Psychology. Martin's psychology. The psychology of Martin. Okay, so, like, when a vampire is sexy and sophisticated, and he uses magic to lure his victims to either kill them or turn them into servants, for some reason, we're more accepting of that scenario. We're like, oh, yeah, Dracula is kind of cool, but I think this film really puts into focus what's actually happening when you take away all that romantic stuff and what we're left with when you dissect what Dracula is actually doing, which is, like, forcing people to do things they don't want to do and bending them to his will. [00:43:18] Speaker C: I guess I see those as. [00:43:26] Speaker B: Any. Is there any validity in us discussing whether or not Martin is a vampire. [00:43:32] Speaker A: Oh, I think that's part of the psychology. That was one of the questions I had for you guys. And I think this also sort of folds into another question. So it's like, what is your theory on Martin? And do you sympathize with him at all the way that I do? And I'll sort of explain why I do. But what were you saying? Could you elaborate, Chris, what you meant by you see them as separate mean. [00:44:06] Speaker C: Okay, so you can kind of go down a couple different roads there. I guess what I'm thinking on is this, is that, to me, my read on the film, all the black and white scenes are Martin's imagination, his desire for that picturesque version of himself. But it's not real, right. He's not really an 84 year old vampire. He's a troubled, however old. He's supposed to be 17, I think. Right, sure. Boy who has a lot of trauma put on by family issues, that has made him into a serial killer in which he is probably fascinated with the idea of being the evil person that everyone has told him he always was. Now, I think that there is something to. And to go into serial killers. If you look back, like in the 17 hundreds, 18 hundreds, serial killers in Europe in particular, were often nicknamed the vampire of. The vampire of Hanover, the vampire of Hamburg, that type of thing. Right. And they're murderers. That for some of them, they actually did drink blood. Like the kind of drinking blood in serial killers is a thing out there. [00:45:25] Speaker B: Dismembering, eating body parts, necrophilia, consuming the flesh. [00:45:31] Speaker C: So that's a thing that's real. But is he a vampire within the hammer studios interpretation of a vampire? [00:45:40] Speaker B: No. [00:45:41] Speaker C: So I guess that's where I kind of would draw the line of differentiation. I love, for instance, that first jump off the train attack. Whenever he's ready to jump into that room, he's got that black and white cut to the woman that's beautiful and the picturesque victim in the fantasy that's almost like, ready for, like, oh, you're going to come in, are you going to kill me and sexually assault me? That kind of fantasy of a murderer's mind to then the reality of breaking in the train car, and it's like wearing the cold cream mask and like blowing your nose, which is like that juxtaposition of the fantasy of the menace to the reality. [00:46:36] Speaker B: Chris, that was so well said, and I agree with you almost 100%. And how you just explained that, that was so well, thank you. [00:46:48] Speaker C: Thank you. Please, more kudos, Michelangelo. Your turn now. [00:46:54] Speaker B: You're wrong. [00:46:59] Speaker A: No, I feel like we're saying the same thing in different ways. That was kind of my point. When you take away the fantasy element of a vampire film, who are these people? And what they are is the reality, which is Martin. Right. There is no romance. It's ugly. It's just awful. [00:47:32] Speaker B: So this begs me to again say, is there any validity in discussing whether or not he's actually a vampire? Because it may not matter. Right. [00:47:44] Speaker A: I think you take away what you want from it. Right. Obviously. But, yeah, I definitely don't think he's a vampire. I definitely think he's just the extremely troubled young man who's being. Instead of. It's kind of his own fault. You know what I mean? He actively does not want to go to a hospital. He's cool with the status quo, and the type of help being offered to him is religion, which just makes it worse. Right? [00:48:29] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. And actually, there's a lot of examples, again, through history of serial killers coming from exactly that, even kind of, like, background. Ted Bundy came from a very religious family and was a stalwart and then claims that the vice of pornography is what turned him into a serial killer. So there's a lot of that out there. [00:48:51] Speaker B: I guess. [00:48:52] Speaker C: Real quick, while we're kind of just a bit on the topic of serial killers, I did kind of want to actually go back to something that you said, michelangelo, that I think is kind of interesting, saying that through modern film, we wouldn't have something like Martin because of having such a flawed and so much obviously, like serial killer and that type of thing. [00:49:14] Speaker A: I'm just saying as far as. Just as in a world where there's always going to be outliers, there's always going to be wonderful films made every single year. But we certainly have been going through a time where we like very uncomplicated protagonists. That's what I was saying. [00:49:34] Speaker C: Well, I was going to say, though, too, it's kind of interesting. Right. And that, from my perspective, I feel like, to your point, you are kind of right, though, in that we no longer do that with fiction, but what we do instead is we get the Dahmer series on Netflix and that type of thing, which is really much worse because it's like propaganda, a bit of propaganda, and almost like weird mythologize, mythologizing of an actual serial killer with actual victims families. [00:50:06] Speaker B: A little bit of like torture porn thrown in. [00:50:09] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:50:09] Speaker B: People who want to just see how it's better because it's real kind of thing. But not that that's necessarily how I feel, but I see it all the time. Yeah, go ahead. [00:50:21] Speaker C: Oh, no. I was going to say it's a fine line. Right. I don't know. I like reading and Mindhunter, for instance, like, taking in things about serial killers. I think it's fucked up whenever it's like people profiteering off of pain. And then imagine if you're a family, a brother, a sister, a father, husband. [00:50:40] Speaker B: Whatever, having to relive. Yeah. [00:50:42] Speaker C: Of a victim. I mean, that's terrible and great deal. [00:50:45] Speaker B: Without even really being considered. Especially the Dahmer. That's the one that really sticks out, because you mentioned that one. But the family was not even considered. They weren't talked to. They weren't asked if it was okay. Their likenesses were able to be used. [00:51:00] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. That poor woman. Like, the video of. It's just like, it rattles your soul when she's in the courtroom with Dahmer and she know, Jeffrey, I hate you, motherfucker. Because he killed her brother. And then they literally did that shot for shot remake as a fictional series. That is so fucked. [00:51:21] Speaker A: So I guess we're all of the viewpoint that Martin definitely is not a vampire, right. And that the curse is some sort of hereditary mental illness that is being refused to be acknowledged properly and treated throughout the family. And the one person who tries to help Martin, Christine Forrest, Christina just isn't able to help them out. You know, she's. She's got her own. I mean, being a man, being a what she got, her story in the film is very interesting. You know, being a woman in the. Trying to leave a desolate place to create your own life and doing that on your own was very hard. [00:52:11] Speaker B: Again. [00:52:14] Speaker A: It used to be very easy to kill people, especially women trying to build new lives. Devil in the white city. So do you, with all that said, do you sympathize with Martin? [00:52:34] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. [00:52:35] Speaker B: Sure. [00:52:36] Speaker A: So why. Why do you sympathize with Martin, Chris? [00:52:39] Speaker C: Well, I mean, I sympathize with mean. Even whenever you read about a real world example of someone who has done horrible, horrible mean, I have the ability to empathize and to sympathize because a lot of times these people come from horrible life experiences that have put them into a position in which they have become this monster that doesn't absolve them of what they've done. But I can empathize and I can sympathize with these positions that they have been put in. So for, like Martin, for know, my read on. It is that the familiar trauma that he experiences at the hands of Kuda is probably nothing, and that he's probably experienced much worse in his past that has driven him to this moment, that he has become this refined. I mean, it doesn't absolve him, but I can. [00:53:32] Speaker A: Mickey. [00:53:33] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I don't think I actually have sympathy, but I do have empathy for Martin, if that makes, uh. For me, it's a hard thing to do to empathize with Martin, but the idea that there's something deeply wrong with you and your parental figures or the people that you have to rely on are convinced they know what it is, and it can be fixed by dogma or old world ideology, that's super dangerous. And also, I have my own. Not nearly to that extent, but I grew up in a very strong christian household, and they imbue you with ideas that you sometimes. Some of them are beautiful, spiritual, great ideas that I have no problem with. And I don't want to ever insult anybody for being religious, but they're also ideas that, you know, are wrong, that they imbue you with, that you start to believe, and you have to be removed from those situations to be able to start thinking about things independently. So in that way, I empathize with him. He's isolated, with a very dogmatic person who is just re continuing this whatever. It's a continued type of abuse, psychological abuse on Martin. So, again, do I have sympathy for him? No. But do I empathize with his situation? Yeah. It actually reminded me, michelangelo, there was a family member of mine years ago who was struggling with alcoholism, and half of my family was like, we're going to pray, and you need to go to AA. And I was like. I was like, not the one. I was, like, one of a couple of people in the family that were like, I don't think so. I was like, I don't think we can just pray this away and send them to AA. I think that the alcoholism is a symptom and not the disease. And I think that they need to go talk with somebody to work out abuses they suffered when they were children that have wrought a very hard adult life for them. And I was privy to some of those abuses this person went through. And so I just remember being like, what is wrong with all of you people? You are diagnosing her based on prayers. And I don't want to put down AA because I know it's helped a lot of people, but AA has done, like, weird dogmatic in its way, but. [00:56:00] Speaker A: It has helped some people. I have a friend who listens to the podcast who is in AA and swears by it. He's also free thinking. I don't think he sees it as such a dogmatic know. There are people within the. Chris. Kurt Vonnegan, what would he say about someone who would move to a new place and not have any friends? [00:56:27] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:56:28] Speaker C: Join your local church and form community. Like, even if you don't necessarily take on the morals and the values of the place, necessarily forming the humanity relations is what's going to drive your ability, your joy of life. [00:56:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:42] Speaker A: It's when it becomes dogmatic. Right. That it becomes a problem or when. [00:56:49] Speaker B: It'S not social and it's not communal. It's like, I will say, the time you see Martin flourish, to be honest, is, uh, Miss Santorini, is that her with. When there, he flourishes a little bit because he's with somebody else. He's outside of that isolationism that Kuda's put him in. And so I think that there is a common thing there. Right. It's like the dogma and the isolationism and not getting help. You know what I mean? Yeah. [00:57:25] Speaker A: The help that you need. [00:57:26] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. [00:57:29] Speaker A: Did you guys like Mickey? I think Mickey is going to connect with this. And, Chris, I think you also have something that would connect with this as well. But when you have to move in with family because of some failure in your life, and you have no choice but to humble yourself and live with people who you don't want to be around, maybe people who you were running away from to begin with, and now you're having to live under the roof and follow the rules, and. [00:58:03] Speaker B: It feels. [00:58:04] Speaker A: Like your dreams have been dashed and there's no magic left in the world. I really connected with him because I've been there. And, Mickey, I know you've been there, too. You've had to move back in with the parents, and it could be hard. [00:58:29] Speaker B: Yes. [00:58:30] Speaker C: No, ditto. [00:58:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Pretty universal. [00:58:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Right. And then obviously, there's the similarities with being an artist, right? Being a vampire or being someone from the LGBTQ community. Just being other in any way whatsoever. Like the dinner scene, the first dinner scene. I love that scene. I think Christine Forrest is brilliant in it when he's doing the finger guillotine trick, which, by the way. So I did magic as a kid, and I had that trick, and it always worked. And there was a wrist version that did magic. I did birthday parties with a friend. We had a wrist version, so it. [00:59:19] Speaker B: Was a little bit bigger. [00:59:20] Speaker A: And then there was a full head version where you would use like, a watermelon in your head. And I desperately wanted that, but it was expensive, so I never had it. I didn't end up getting it. I wasn't that good at magic. But I love that scene because I had some PTSD in that scene with Kuda. It's like, look, he's not even eating right. Look how he's eating. That was like constantly me. Like, my older brother would be like, I'd want to eat with chopsticks or something. And he'd be like, what's wrong with him? Look, he's not like everyone else. What's wrong with him? There's something wrong with him. [01:00:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:00:09] Speaker C: I think it's also funny. He does the trick, right? And it's like he kind of. You see him opening up a little bit and then it immediately withers away whenever Tom Savini comes in as boyfriend of like, oh, no, ruin my fun. [01:00:28] Speaker A: He originally wanted to play Martin, but the part was already cast. The part was already cast, rewritten for John ampless, who does an amazing job in the film. [01:00:43] Speaker B: Yeah, really great. [01:00:44] Speaker A: But could you imagine? Tom Savini isn't sweet and innocent. He's a very manly man, a man of the world. He went to Vietnam. He saw some shit. He is a man. [01:00:59] Speaker C: I will say he comes across a little softer in this, though, than I feel like, than anything else I've ever seen. But no, I don't pull off. [01:01:07] Speaker A: You should see Knight Riders. He's real. [01:01:09] Speaker C: I've seen Knight Riders. [01:01:10] Speaker A: Yeah. I think he's very sweet in that. He's a sweetheart. Don't get me wrong, he's a sweetheart. [01:01:17] Speaker C: Guy in that whole film. [01:01:19] Speaker A: What are you talking? Yeah, but at his core, that's my point. We're not going to talk about night raiders. We will talk about night. It starts Ed Harris. It's about Renaissance festival and motorcycle riders. And if you haven't seen it, you need to see it. It blew my mind as. [01:01:35] Speaker B: Um. [01:01:36] Speaker A: It's like George Romero directed this right after dawn of the dead, and it has a lot of big cast members. Anyways, so Tom Savini is a sweetheart. But. [01:01:47] Speaker C: Mickey, don't get so mad. [01:01:49] Speaker A: Mickey, hold on. Mickey, you know this. Despite who you actually are, you tend to look and come off a certain way, right? So when it comes to casting, it's like you'll never be cast as the sweet, innocent boy, Mickey, because you're just too manly looking. And you've always had, like, even when you were younger, you kind of have a Tom Savini thing going on where it's like you never looked. I've never known you, and I knew you when you were 18. You've never looked boyish. You're always charming and manly, but I would never call you boyish. [01:02:34] Speaker B: Well, similar to Chris, there's a certain language you have when you're making films, the visual language, and you have to say a lot. Very expedited. And oftentimes in a world where you're only making, like, at best, studios are putting out, like, eight movies a year at that time. One of the way you expedite is by being very stereotypical with your casting. And now, in this particular case, he does a wonderful job as Martin. I'm not taking that away from him. It's like, I'm sure Tom Savini had it within him to do an interesting, nuanced character. But you're right, that would take a lot more explaining and a lot more exposition to figure out why. No, it does a lot when you just see, just. You can't help but throughout this film, feeling for Martin and also his shy naivete with. [01:03:40] Speaker A: Abby. [01:03:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, my God. It's so, guys. [01:03:43] Speaker A: Have you guys ever had a relationship? [01:03:45] Speaker B: I was going to ask the same question. An older woman. Has an older woman ever seduced you? And be honest right here. [01:03:52] Speaker A: Right? [01:03:52] Speaker B: Yes. [01:03:52] Speaker A: The answer is yes for me also. [01:03:55] Speaker B: With. [01:03:58] Speaker A: Say, okay, chris, let the men talk. Mickey, please tell me about. [01:04:05] Speaker B: In her defense, according to Michelangelo, I've always looked old, so she may have not known she was seducing a boy. [01:04:10] Speaker A: I didn't say you look old. I said you look like a man. You look like a man. There's a. So I would love to know this if you're willing to share. This sounds juicy. And I'd like some juicy lead into Abby quite nicely. [01:04:34] Speaker B: I'm not going to get too juicy. I'll just say this because I do think that if I were to get too juicy, it could maybe lead to divorce. No, it might be against the law. When I was a 16 year old. [01:04:49] Speaker A: Holy shit. [01:04:53] Speaker B: Whoa. [01:04:57] Speaker A: Keep going. No, keep going. It's just between us. We're in the basement. No one else is listening. [01:05:05] Speaker B: I'm, like, halfway through my wine. It's just a bunch of guys talking. It's just us. No. When I was a teenage boy, 16 years old, one of my good friends, he had an older sister who was well into her, like, mid to late 20s. [01:05:20] Speaker A: Older sister? [01:05:22] Speaker B: Yeah. And she would always kind of flirt with the boys when we were over there one time because I was like, a big, braggadocious tough guy. I was like, oh, man, your sister's totally into me. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And one day, she called me out on it, and she was like, oh, yeah. She's like, you want to go take a ride? And I was like, seriously? She's like, yeah. I was like, yeah, for sure. 100% got in the car. Anyway, I actually think had I not gotten scared and asked her to take me back, something would have happened. But think. But thank God. [01:06:11] Speaker C: That's a great punchline. And then she put her hand on my leg and I was like, can we go back home? [01:06:19] Speaker B: I want to go home. I'm scared. But I think that she was willing. And I was like, big tug of. But, man, I fell apart real quick. And she was like, okay, I'm definitely dealing with a 16 year old boy. [01:06:32] Speaker A: I want to hear her version of the story. Oh, my God, I needed that. [01:06:38] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [01:06:39] Speaker A: That's great. [01:06:40] Speaker B: That's great, Mickey. [01:06:41] Speaker A: That's not where I thought it was going. [01:06:44] Speaker C: I'm hearing, Mickey, is that you had your own moment of. Whenever Miss Santini touches Martin's head and pulls away and looks at her like. [01:06:54] Speaker B: I identify wholly with. [01:06:58] Speaker A: Sweet, sweet, innocent boy. You look like a man, but you sweet, innocent boy. [01:07:04] Speaker B: Go ahead. You're up, man. [01:07:06] Speaker A: You're up. I was older. I was in my early twenty s, and I met this older woman, I won't say how. And one thing led to another, and she had these kids, and I started babysitting for her. [01:07:29] Speaker B: You're the babysitter? Oh, wow. [01:07:31] Speaker A: I'm the babysitter. And her kids were great. And I was in a very open and sensitive time in my life. And we met in an acting class. I'll just say we met like Martin. Class like Martin. Like Martin. And she had this story of an abusive ex husband who was very controlling. And I sympathized with her. And a constant thing throughout my life has been like, women expecting me to be maybe perhaps more like my brother, more sophisticated and worldly and mature and sexually advanced. And much like you, Mickey, I felt like I was following when women have told me that maybe I was leading. Anyways, one thing led to another, and I ended up in a weird relationship with this woman that I did not want to be in. But I did not know how to say no to things. She was in charge. And through my meekishness, I led it to a place that was not a good place to be. And to be fair, maybe she shouldn't have engaged in a sexual type of relationship with someone who's watching. [01:09:11] Speaker B: Can we just call it the sexy stuff, please? The sexy stuff? [01:09:14] Speaker A: The sexy that. Actually, this is a great segue, and I do want to talk about Abby some more, but what do you guys think he means by the sexy stuff? Because I have a clear. At this point, I have a clear idea of what I think sexy stuff is. And mind you, there is no right answer to this question. I just want to know how you see it. So, Chris, when he says the sexy stuff, is he raping these women? And what does he mean by sexy stuff? [01:09:47] Speaker C: I don't think it really matters if it means full penetrative sex or not or full penetrative rape. It's not sex. But I think that it really just more highlights his immaturity and his, despite the complexities of his crime, what a mentally unadvanced person he is, and the fact that he can't even refer to it as sex and says that he couldn't imagine. I think. Was it the exact quote on the radio dj? Something like, I'd be too shy to do the sexy stuff with someone when they're awake. [01:10:25] Speaker B: That fucked up. They have the sexy stuff whenever they want. They don't even know they get to have that sexy stuff whenever they want. But he can only have it if a woman is asleep. [01:10:40] Speaker A: Unconscious. Yeah. [01:10:41] Speaker C: Knocked out. That's my drug. [01:10:45] Speaker A: Okay, Mickey, do you think he's having, like, obviously sexual assault? And, Chris, you made a good point, but what do you think he means by the sexy stuff? [01:10:56] Speaker B: I think that just, like, in a child's mind, the sexy stuff is anything involving your naked bodies against each other, which could be for him. I don't know if he's actually going all the way with these women that he's knocking out and then killing. But does it matter? Again, it's like he's stripping them nude and laying with them, and then we know with Abby that he has had actual sex, because they do the whole discussion of the condom. And it is sweet how he's worried. [01:11:32] Speaker A: That he's hurt her or done something. [01:11:34] Speaker B: Wrong, but that's the image of that, too. [01:11:38] Speaker A: Yeah, but that's also the issue of. [01:11:41] Speaker B: This film, and we'll get into it. I was fighting to not use the word incel, but I have to use that word as the definition of what Martin is, is involuntarily celibate until he's not. And then he actually. Then we're like, oh, he doesn't kill her. He's kind of sensitive a little bit to her. And there's like a relationship budding there. And it is such a mind fuck for a viewer because you're starting to be like, oh, well, maybe he was good all the time. He just needed a woman to see him. And there's a real weird part of this movie that really is kind of like, doesn't sit well with me. And we get into it and we're talking about his psyche and his emotions versus every victim. It's just like the Dahmer series, right? It is told from a point of view, which is fine. That's what a film has done. That's what films do. But us as viewers. [01:12:47] Speaker C: I mean, it's one of those things, right? It creates very muddied water and how, like, it's so rare in this world, even amongst the monsters out there, that things are absolute. I mean, you can find, like, for instance, the gentleman who was the Garden State rapist and murderer in California for so many years. That man was married and raised three daughters. And from all things that they have said, was a tendered, caring father and husband. You know what I mean? But then he was a fucking monster away from them and out of the light. It's complex. [01:13:24] Speaker A: It's complex. [01:13:27] Speaker C: It's hard. [01:13:30] Speaker A: I think what he means by the. [01:13:32] Speaker C: Sexy stuff, you seem very interested in defining. [01:13:36] Speaker B: You're really put on that voice. The sexy is. This goes to my big question. I have a massive question for you that's coming up. But please, I want you to continue to talk about your feelings. [01:13:51] Speaker A: The sexy stuff. I don't think he's having sex with these women. I think he's looking for that romantic, magical, post coital cuddling thing. I think he thinks to a certain extent, right, what is love making? Right. Love making is giving yourself to someone completely. And he's got that all mixed up in his head. We see him at the top of the film. He's got all these magic books that he's reading and he's practicing magic tricks. I think that's one of his coping mechanisms for dealing with the fact that there is no magic in the world. And I think all he wants is to feel normal and to have a normal relationship with people and understand people and to love someone and to be able to make love with them and then give himself to them or have them give themselves to him. To have that, like, when you're in a consensual relationship and you make love with someone, it's amazing. And then when you're finished and you're laying, as, like, one entity. You're not draining the life from them. [01:15:27] Speaker B: Right. [01:15:28] Speaker A: You're drinking from each other. It's like a consensual, mutual thing. So I think that's what he's looking for. He just doesn't understand how to achieve that. And he starts to. When we look at the victims within the films, right, within this film, right, we have Denise, who's the trained victim. Then we have the housewife. She is listed as housewife victim, but she ends up surviving, right? He just cuddles her. He ends up killing Louis, her lover. Then he develops this relationship with Abby. He tries to better himself. So he goes and he kills this drunk. [01:16:24] Speaker C: That's my read on that was. That was a crime of desperation. Was that he was. It wasn't from the embedded necessarily. [01:16:33] Speaker A: Well, I think now that he is crossed over into this area of what a mature sexual relationship is, that also now has become a thing that it's harder to lie to himself because he talks about, like, it used to be so easy to pick someone. I used to be able to look at someone and then just instantly fall in love. But now that I've had some experience, I'm more worldly, and I can't be so naive as to just fall in love with someone upon a first glance and develop this whole. Because he develops this sick personal fantasy about who this person is and who this person will be for him, right? So he's incapable of doing the ritual. Now that this new thing has been introduced, this is just the way I'm seeing it. [01:17:33] Speaker B: For some reason, you did not watch this film. Michelangelo is doing massive gymnastics around the narrative of this film right now. [01:17:42] Speaker A: I don't think I'm doing massive gymnastics. This is just my interpretation of Martin's journey. [01:17:48] Speaker B: I agree. I agree that this is your interpretation. I'm just making sure that's because. I guess what I'm trying to say is you're contextualizing a lot. That is not at all that clear. [01:18:03] Speaker A: To me. It's clear to me. This is. [01:18:05] Speaker B: I 100% believe that it is. But I want to tell anybody that's not coming from your experience when they watch the film, it is not that clear. Does that make sense? [01:18:14] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a piece of art, and you get what you want from it. People take away different things. So it's like I'm not right, I'm not wrong. This is just my interpretation of the events throughout the film and what they mean to me, what they represent to you, what they represent to me. Right. I'm looking at a painting, and this is what I'm getting from the painting 100%. So I feel like some of his naivete has been taken away now that he isn't so innocent anymore, now that he's actually had sex with the woman. And he can't continue his ritual as he's been doing it. And now he's becoming desperate. So what does he do in desperation? I think at first he tries to. Maybe I'll do a punishment thing. There's that mean woman at the grocery store. I don't have the balls to do that. There's that neighbor who's kind of an alpha male dick. I don't have the balls to do that. I'm going to go for low hanging fruit. I'm going to go to the people we ignore in society. The people with substance abuse problems, the people without homes. [01:19:24] Speaker B: Right? [01:19:24] Speaker A: So I think he goes and he drinks this guy's blood. And then he's essentially the last victim, kind of. But there's also the non blood drinking victims he has that same night. The other guy he hits over the head. I don't know if that guy is dead. The guy who's super into cars. And then there's the three guys, the three possible criminals. They seem to have been up to no good, but who knows? Maybe they were planning a community event late at night. We don't know. But Martin ends up creating this absurd comedy of errors where three men and two cops all end up killing each other as a result of him, of his bloodlust, reaching to a point where he isn't able to control the situation like he normally does. Right. We can agree on. That's a thing that happens. [01:20:30] Speaker C: Your beats are right. There's some middle steps between them that I think are your take on it. Not necessarily. [01:20:37] Speaker A: What's in the theory? The middle takes. That's me. But he's desperate. He's desperate. He goes off his ritual. He uses blunt force trauma to kill a man, drink his blood, tries to change his clothes at a salvation army. [01:20:56] Speaker C: That is so confusing. [01:20:58] Speaker A: Yeah, well, it is a muddled. It is muddled that everything you say is what happened. [01:21:04] Speaker B: All the motivations, though, are things that you're. [01:21:07] Speaker A: Yeah. My interpretation of the story. And Mickey when he's trying to change his clothes quickly, and it's taking forever. As a fellow theater man, it's fucking impossible to change your clothes when you're in a rush. [01:21:23] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. [01:21:26] Speaker A: I thought of De Niro's character from Heat. Right. Mickey. And I read heat, too. And Robert De Niro's character from Heat says, fast isn't fast. Smooth is fast. Right. You can't be in a hurry if. [01:21:44] Speaker C: You'Re in the original film. [01:21:46] Speaker A: It might be in the original film as well. [01:21:49] Speaker B: It is in the original film. But also, it's a very well known military saying. Like, Navy Seals use it, special forces use it. It's like, slow is fast and fast is it. [01:22:00] Speaker A: That's it. [01:22:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Because it's self explanatory. I don't need to explain. [01:22:11] Speaker A: Abby represents a possible change. And then all these bad things happen, right? He goes off his ritual. All these people die. He almost gets caught. Christina leaves, doesn't write him like she's supposed to, and now he's left with, and, like, all seems lost. So what does an addict do when they've tried to better themselves and they've reached an obstacle? [01:22:43] Speaker C: I don't know what an addict or. [01:22:46] Speaker A: A person who has a chronic issue. [01:22:49] Speaker B: Right. [01:22:49] Speaker A: Once they've reached an obstacle that they feel that they're not able to overcome and there's no one there to help them, they just revert back to their old ways. [01:22:58] Speaker C: Right, but he doesn't really revert to. We don't see him. [01:23:03] Speaker A: He would have if not for the very abrupt ending, which we'll get to assume. [01:23:08] Speaker C: Yeah, but that's not in the film, though. [01:23:11] Speaker A: Yeah, no, it's not in the film, but I think that's where it was going. [01:23:18] Speaker C: I just like to call out real quick that the only crime the cops respond to in this film is property crime. [01:23:27] Speaker A: Fuck it. Fuck it. Someone's robbing the thrift store. What was he thinking? [01:23:35] Speaker B: Exactly. It's so dumb. [01:23:37] Speaker C: So fucking weird. [01:23:39] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like, that's. That kind of like. Romero's not known for his brilliance at the technique of his writing. He's known for his sort of subtext and his editing. [01:23:54] Speaker B: Right. [01:23:55] Speaker A: So that's a situation where it's like, okay, I'll be forgiving in that. [01:24:04] Speaker B: Also, those were actual Braddock police. I don't know if you guys read that or. [01:24:09] Speaker A: No, I didn't. [01:24:10] Speaker B: Yeah, those are actual Braddock police that he was able to talk into. Just like using the cop car, doing the whole thing. [01:24:16] Speaker C: Nice. [01:24:17] Speaker A: So, Mickey. Abby, you were saying before we recorded, you condone her death? [01:24:26] Speaker B: Her death. [01:24:28] Speaker C: Big proponent. [01:24:35] Speaker A: That's interesting. [01:24:37] Speaker B: She had sexy stuff. She cheated on her husband. She deserves what she gets. No, I'm kidding. No, I actually think that Abby, she needs help too. [01:24:48] Speaker A: She needs help, too. [01:24:49] Speaker B: Her arc, for me is as important as Martin's as far as just the movie, I will say that Abby is what makes the movie work for me in a way where I feel that Romero isn't lost in telling maybe a misguided story. I think that how he treats that relationship, and especially her end, shows that he is well in tune with the world and knows what he's doing. And a master in that way. Like them sitting on the hillside looking at downtown Pittsburgh, which love that beautiful shot. But just know she doesn't know what Martin is. She sees Martin the same way Michelangelo sees Martin, as this precious, sweet thing that she wishes she could be like. Just. [01:25:44] Speaker A: I don't want to be like, pardon? I'm kidding. [01:25:50] Speaker B: I'm kidding. But the first time I watched that film, she felt like a side character with an interesting turn at the end. Right? Watching it the second time or, no, the third time, actually watching it the third time, from the moment she gets on screen, you see somebody who is. She has, I think, a more modern story that Romero is touching on. A woman who has a husband who is obviously Cheating. Guy who probably married her, made her a trophy wife. She stays at home with no opportunities, much like Martin, much like the people of Braddock. And she too is like, she can't leave. She's stuck in this marriage. This is her life. This is her means of source of income. It's like maybe she can steal away for a moment sometimes with this young man who doesn't sit there and treat her like shit, doesn't sit there and tell her why she is second class citizen or whatever reason, whatever. She feels a little bit of power, a little bit of agency when she's with Martin. And it feels good, but it's not. [01:27:03] Speaker A: You are. You are filling in your interpretation of her relationship with the husband. I just want to kind of like what I was doing with my interpretation a hundred percent. Right. He could be like a really good guy. And she hates herself so much because she feels the way she does and there's nothing wrong with him. You know what I mean? That's a possibility. [01:27:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:27:27] Speaker A: Definite is that she is very unhappy. [01:27:30] Speaker B: Yeah. And there are some written in lines that suggest that he's a little bit controlling. We'll just say that there are lines written in that he might be controlling. [01:27:40] Speaker A: Well, you have to control women or else you don't know what they'll do. [01:27:46] Speaker B: And she does mention that financially, he owns the financial strings of their relationship. And we also know that he is cheating a lot. So I am saying things. You're right. [01:27:57] Speaker A: Cheating. [01:27:58] Speaker B: Yes. She says when she goes to fill up the gas in the car, she goes, he spends all his gas going out and being with all those girls. She's like. And then she puts the gas in the car, and she goes, I'm going to spend his money, not mine. I don't know. [01:28:10] Speaker A: I feel like I trust him more than. [01:28:12] Speaker B: And then she grabs the book. She goes, he makes me note every cent I spend. And she writes down the gas, and. [01:28:18] Speaker C: She puts, you don't know who he is, but in the church scene, he looks annoyed. I assume that's her husband in the church, grabs her. She's like, talking to Martin too much. So again, that bully, like, oh, don't talk to people. So to your point, I'm going to. [01:28:38] Speaker A: Write a film where that guy is, like, the nicest guy, and he's just like, things are tough. I'm not working. We have to keep track of the gas so I know exactly what's being spent, because he's like a future algorithm guy. [01:28:52] Speaker C: That weird teenager kid. He looks like a serial killer. [01:29:00] Speaker A: This kid looks messed up. I don't think you should have him around the house. He's fixing the lock. You had him fix the lock. How much should you pay him? I'm replacing that lock. I could do that myself. While you're spending unnecessary money and you're getting this weird stray cat stereo killer kid to fix the lock, I don't feel safe. I have to go out of town just to support us, to keep the roof over our head. You're barren, and that's okay. I love you. [01:29:32] Speaker C: Is this a one man play now? [01:29:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Great. Yeah. So I think that both of us are on the same track here. [01:29:43] Speaker A: The world needs more. One man plays the parade. Some good production value the parade for me, other than like, oh, there's a parade. Let's get some production value out of. It's also, for me, it's this way for Martin to be a part of the community, to blend in for just only a moment, to sort of pretend what it's like to feel and be normal, to be. Participate in society. [01:30:27] Speaker B: Right? [01:30:28] Speaker A: And then that is abruptly finished. He has a great day at the parade. [01:30:37] Speaker C: And then also sheer luck because it wasn't planned for the parade. It was know. [01:30:43] Speaker A: And when you make a movie for $100,000, it's like, we got to fucking end this thing. Ties into the ending quite nicely. It's this, like, moment of hope. And then Kuda gets him, ironically, for a murder he did not commit. [01:31:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:31:04] Speaker A: Kind of like his suffering is over. [01:31:08] Speaker B: Right. [01:31:10] Speaker C: Is his suffering? [01:31:12] Speaker B: I don't know. [01:31:14] Speaker A: No. Martin's suffering. [01:31:16] Speaker B: Well, no, I mean, is Martin really suffering? [01:31:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I feel like he's suffering. [01:31:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:31:23] Speaker A: That's one of the things that makes me empathize with him, is that I feel like he's aware of how messed up he is, and he feels like he cannot fix it or he's unwilling, and he just has to keep. He's like, I get by. Like, I figured out a way to be fine, and fine is just fine for me. I can do that. I do feel like his life is suffering, but that's just me. [01:31:53] Speaker C: He's a mopey 17 year old, but when it comes to his crimes and that type of stuff, I don't get an overarching sense of guilt and remorse. Yeah, it just seems like this is life, because, I mean, if there was. Well, why don't, you know, let's just play a little advocate here. Why not just kill an animal and drink its blood instead of killing? [01:32:14] Speaker B: And I could be wrong, and if I'm wrong, correct me. But there's never that scene for Martin where it's like he's really fighting against his impulses. [01:32:24] Speaker C: Yes. Agree. [01:32:26] Speaker B: And I think that's why I feel know, in a vampire story, like, you take interview, the vampire prep, it's like fighting against the impulses that are inherently in him to do this. [01:32:36] Speaker A: Well, if he looked like Brad Pitt, I don't think he'd be having the problems he's that. [01:32:43] Speaker B: But that goes back to one of the things about the movie that kind of puts a hitch in my wagon is that I don't even know if that's a saying. [01:32:53] Speaker C: I liked it. [01:32:56] Speaker A: I know what you meant. [01:32:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Puts a bunch in my stocking. [01:33:01] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [01:33:02] Speaker B: Keep going. One of the things that puts a crimp in my trousers. [01:33:12] Speaker A: There'S a straight trajectory to a boner that you're creating here. But, okay, what is you on, Mickey? [01:33:21] Speaker B: Michelangelo, whether intentional or not, it does make, I think, the audience is a part of the narrative where, like myself, like Michelangelo, and I can watch the same film and come away with completely different motives, subtext, and whether or not that is intentional, great filmmaking or accidental, like, maybe not clean filmmaking that creates that, but it definitely makes this film very worthy of conversation and different every time you watch it. Yeah, absolutely. [01:33:57] Speaker A: Do you think the world is better off now that Kuda kills Martin? [01:34:05] Speaker C: I mean, I assume that he would continue being a murderer. So in that regard, yes. In a way that there's not someone murdering people. It's like the threat has been taken out of the streets a bit. I don't know if you can really say better. That makes it justified. It's a bit of a philosophical question. [01:34:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I feel like that. No, I don't think the world's a better place if Kuda kills Martin. I think that the world would be a better place if Kuda dies of old age and Martin seeks the help that he needs. [01:34:38] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:34:38] Speaker A: He reforms. He rehabilitates. [01:34:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:34:44] Speaker A: Yes. [01:34:44] Speaker B: Whatever that is. I don't want to make any, like, I don't know what they. [01:34:48] Speaker A: Because now we're talking about capital punishment and, like. Yeah. [01:34:51] Speaker B: I mean, I don't want to get into. Yeah. It's like, what is that? What is that? But it is. It's a. I don't think there's a win for Kuda either, because it's like. Then I'll put it this way. I thought about this for the first time in watching this film. I had a moment where I was like, this feels like the crucible in a way where. In which if we say for a minute that Martin might really be a vampire, then we give credence to. Or we even give credence to what Kuda doing being right, then we give credence to the idea that religious dogma and the crazy things that come with it have relevance in a world that's trying to move beyond that. And I think that that's. No, Kuda is not justified in doing what he did. Is the world a better place? I don't know. Because, by and large, we can't let those dogmatic views win in the end and celebrate them. And, like, well, but it was still, you know, I don't think the means or what he did should be rewarded. [01:36:02] Speaker C: Ends don't justify the means. But I will say this. If you watch the credits, that area did need fertilizing. [01:36:09] Speaker B: So, I mean, it did. [01:36:13] Speaker A: And the one moment that I kind of feel a positive feeling towards Kuda is when he puts the cross on the grave. And now it just popped in my head, like he's probably just making sure that he stays dead and he can't get out of the ground. But it's like, for some reason, every time I've watched it, it seems like he's like, now you can rest. [01:36:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:36:44] Speaker C: Even though it's funny. [01:36:45] Speaker B: Can we. [01:36:45] Speaker C: Does the whole pressing of the cross into his face and all that earlier in the film, it's proven that that means. [01:36:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:36:52] Speaker A: So maybe that's what he does mean by that. I will say this in regards to all of that, and I'm going to quote Romero on this, Martin is designed so that all those supernatural monsters that are part of our literary tradition are, in essence, aspigations of ourselves. They are beasts we've created in order to exercise the monster from within us. I've tried to show in Martin that you can't just slice off this evil part of ourselves and throw it away. It's a permanent part of us, and we better try to understand it. So I feel like he succeeds in creating a story in which he presents something, that thing that he's talking about that we shouldn't just murder or put away so that it festers. It's something that we should analyze and try to understand so that we can create a better world. That's kind of what I get from it. Okay. [01:38:07] Speaker B: I have a big question for you, Michelangelo. [01:38:10] Speaker A: Yeah? What was this? Wait a second. You dropped a bomb at the beginning of the episode. Our relationship, what's going on here? [01:38:22] Speaker B: It's more of our relationship since starting this show, this podcast. Okay, I recognize. So we take turns, like, kind of like putting out movies and curating and deciding what we think goes with what and whatnot. But there's a recurring theme with Michelangelo's films, whether it's de la morte, de la Morre, whether it's bruiser. Martin. [01:38:47] Speaker A: Chris, Bruiser wasn't my pick. Bruiser was my pick. Bruiser was your pick. That was all Chris. [01:38:52] Speaker B: Me? Okay. All right. Well, then you get out of. My pick was green room, okay? And then we'll even go teen wolf. You really love an incel. You really love the story of a guy who is isolated. And I want to know, why does this speak to you? And I know you as a person are a wonderful, amazing, very thoughtful, very incredible human. But there's obviously something about the stories of these particular men that speak to you. And I just wanted to ask you, what is it? [01:39:27] Speaker A: How is Teen wolf the story of an incel? I don't appreciate you bombarding me with your liberal bullshit, okay? [01:39:37] Speaker B: We all know what Teen Wolf is really saying. We all know what Teen Wolf is really saying. [01:39:42] Speaker A: I think what you're saying is maybe saying something more about you than me right now, and maybe there is some connection in my picks, but I'm a little unaware of it, and I would have appreciated you asking me this beforehand so I could have thought it out a little more. Not after I've had some basement wine at the end of an episode. So I'm not going to be able to crystallize a. I don't agree with what you just asked me, but I will say this, is that I do have a lot of empathy for people in general. And from the time that I saw Frankenstein as a little kid, I've always had a soft spot for the misunderstood know, especially with Rocky having such an impact on me. And I think if we approached the problems we have in life and society with some form of sympathy and empathy towards the individual to try to understand, to try to become friends with, as opposed to an enemy, to try to rehabilitate, as opposed to punish, I think we would be in a better place in this world. What you were saying, if there's any connection to those sorts of characters, it's because ultimately what I want to see is I want to see people choose to do the right thing and for people to become better and for us to become better as a society of loving, caring people who support each other as opposed to punish and ridicule each other. [01:41:36] Speaker C: Yawn. [01:41:37] Speaker A: What's wrong with you? [01:41:39] Speaker B: I think that was such. [01:41:44] Speaker A: Know. [01:41:45] Speaker B: I knew you'd say something like that because I know. Here's what I was going to kind of caveat that with. There are films where these types of tropes, where these characters, like, know Travis Bickle, these guys are weirdly treated like heroes, like true heroes. And I know that's not you. I know that's not you, and I know that you. [01:42:14] Speaker A: I don't see it that way. I think that's a mistake on the viewer to see them as some sort of hero. Rocky is a hero. Obviously. Travis Bickle is not a. [01:42:24] Speaker B: No, that's. [01:42:25] Speaker A: And I don't think that's Martin Scorsese or. [01:42:30] Speaker B: I agree. And I agree. And I know that you agree with that. [01:42:34] Speaker A: But Teen Wolf is a hero. [01:42:38] Speaker B: There's some issues with Teen Wolf. There's some issues. No. [01:42:40] Speaker A: He learns a valuable lesson about being who you are, being true to yourself. I've talked about this already. [01:42:45] Speaker B: I think it's way better. [01:42:46] Speaker A: There's a way better moral message in that movie than there is in backdraft. Back to the future. We're getting off topic. No classic, but. Okay, Mickey, what's your point? [01:43:01] Speaker B: Let me finish. My point is this. I know you felt cornered with that question. [01:43:05] Speaker A: I didn't feel cornered. I felt like it was a shitty question, but go ahead. [01:43:09] Speaker B: But I wanted to ask that question because whenever we talk about these films, there's not a person I know better that understands the comedy of errors. That is manhood. Sometimes or that is perceived manhood. And so you and I both, I think, share a little bit of that sense of humor, or not sense of humor, but just understanding. But we also sometimes come off as like. [01:43:32] Speaker A: And I want everyone to know that. I don't want people to think of Mickey as a rapist and a chauvinist, because I don't care what you've heard. He's not. You're going to have to cut this shit. Just teetering off into a weird place this is going to spiral into. [01:43:56] Speaker B: I don't want people to mistake that either, in fact. [01:44:00] Speaker A: And I don't want people to mistake Chris with being a circus bear. He's not a circus bear. He's a human person, and he deserves respect. So that said, I like this Mickey. [01:44:12] Speaker C: Politicians. I want everyone to know that despite my opponent's claims, I did not. [01:44:19] Speaker A: We got to keep all of. So, Mickey. [01:44:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:44:23] Speaker A: Who do you recommend this to? Who comes into the video store as a professional video store clerk? Who are you? Like, this is something this person is going to want to see. [01:44:33] Speaker B: Okay, so you come in, you like the Joker. [01:44:42] Speaker C: You're very pale. [01:44:49] Speaker A: You like the Joker. You've never heard a taxi driver or king of comedy who's Scorsese, but the Joker, it's awesome. Okay, keep going. [01:44:59] Speaker B: No, honestly, I think that this is a hidden gem of Romero's. Definitely. I think one of his. I love all the shooting in this film. I love all the lead lines, all the symmetry, all. That's beautiful. It's a really well shot film. It has a documentary feel kind of to it. Yeah, very much. Yeah. So for me, it would be like somebody who wants to explore further. They've checked off all the big horror films off their list, and they're looking for something new and different. I think Martin fits that a little bit. I think it's a great addition to your film knowledge if you don't have it, because it's definitely one that I had overlooked. And I think I watch a lot of stuff, but one that. I mean, I live in Pittsburgh and I'd seen Martin. So definitely somebody who has a lot of horror film knowledge, or somebody who has a lot of film knowledge. I think you'll appreciate this. [01:45:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Chris, I know you're not a professional video store clerk. [01:46:01] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm an amateur, which, by the way, and maybe this isn't the right form for it, but I've got to say, while I've been around, I've been renting some of the videos from the store by renting he means he just. [01:46:16] Speaker A: Takes them off the shelf and he goes down to the basement and watches them. [01:46:19] Speaker C: To that point, half the time they're not videos. There just appears to be chunks of velveeta that have been cut into rectangles and painted black. Like, you guys should really get actual videos for the video store. [01:46:30] Speaker A: Well, that's part of a special series we're going to be doing behind the Patreon wall. So I don't appreciate you spoiling that for some of the customers. [01:46:40] Speaker B: We're not a blockbuster. We can't afford fancy security, fancy locks. [01:46:45] Speaker A: What did you say, a block of cheese? No, but that's part of our security. [01:46:54] Speaker B: We don't want people taking the original. [01:46:56] Speaker A: Some people invest in gold. We invest in Velveeta cheese that we paint black and put into a vhs and DVD and blu ray boxes. [01:47:06] Speaker B: We call it black gold. [01:47:08] Speaker A: Black gold. [01:47:14] Speaker C: I. So I would say that my opinions on Martin are kind of conflicted in that I like a lot of the elements of the film. I don't think I really like it as a whole. I don't think it's something that I would ever feel a draw to. [01:47:32] Speaker B: Mean. [01:47:33] Speaker C: I think it's nice to talk about, and I think it's nice to put it within, I think, a frame of a pantheon talking either about Romero's career or maybe even serial killers in film, that type of thing. So I think to that point, it would be a film for a Romero completeist or someone who maybe is tracking a bit of serial killers in pop culture and film. Because there's something to be said for, I think, the depth of what it's hitting on for when it was made in 76, 77. It's a very grimy film to look at, which is, I think, serves the purpose of it. But it doesn't necessarily make for, like, I think, for me, like an enjoyable watch. Like, I kind of thought in watching it, I was like, oh, I could see this being like, a grimy double feature of this. And Henry, for instance. [01:48:22] Speaker A: Henry, portrait of a. [01:48:24] Speaker B: Sorry not to be. [01:48:27] Speaker C: Leave it half off. So, yeah, I don't know. Is there another question boiled in that I skipped over? [01:48:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Who do you recommend this to? I don't give a shit about your opinion of the movie. I love the movie. You go fuck yourself. Who do you recommend this to? [01:48:42] Speaker C: Well, that's what I'm saying, though, is that it would be for someone that's a Romero completeist, someone that's studying serial killer and film, that type of thing. It wouldn't be for I've seen all the major horror films. Could you recommend something else? For me, it's like you probably have other stuff to dive into first. [01:49:01] Speaker A: So I agree with what you guys said, and what I would add to it, as far as recommendations go, is, like, I think of similar protagonists. I think of clockwork orange, american psycho, and like you said, henry, portrait of a serial killer. I think if you're a cinephile, you're probably a fan of 70 cinema. And if you're a fan of 70 cinema, you enjoy a complicated antihero protagonist. So that, coupled with anyone who is a Romero completionist, and for me, that's sort of like, when you describe it as a grimy texture, I think of it as more. For me, it's like a rich and full texture. And this is a film I can fall asleep to. I know it's weird. Not the train scene, obviously, if I want to fall asleep, it's just sort of those long shots of this desolate landscape that's just like, so realistic. [01:50:14] Speaker B: I hope they put that on the new 4K DVD Blu ray. Your quote, it's a film that I. [01:50:22] Speaker A: Could fall asleep too. [01:50:23] Speaker B: I could fall asleep. [01:50:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I can fall asleep too. I know. And one thing I appreciate in Romero's depiction of these assaults is, like, it's not erotic at. It's. It's very uncomfortable to watch, and. [01:50:43] Speaker B: It. [01:50:43] Speaker A: Feels very uncomfortably realistic. [01:50:48] Speaker B: So. [01:50:52] Speaker A: For that type of filmgoer who's willing to subjugate themselves to something like that, especially, like all those things I had said, that's the type of customer I recommend it to. I'm not going to recommend it to the teenagers. I'm not going to recommend it unless Marika, who's a friend of the podcast, who's a co founder of the podcast, we talked about it with her, and again, it's a hard ask for someone who doesn't have a relationship with Romero. This was Martin. Martin, I got to say, I appreciate you, Mickey, and you, Chris, for being here, for being here tonight. [01:51:48] Speaker B: It comes a little bit like. [01:51:56] Speaker A: Thank you to the listeners. Please, Mickey, where can they follow us on social media? [01:52:02] Speaker B: You can follow us on Instagram at the return slot of underscore horror pod. At. That's not right. You can follow us on Instagram. [01:52:16] Speaker A: Just one time. Clear all the way through. What is our Instagram handle? [01:52:24] Speaker B: All right, so you can follow us at the return slot, underscore of horror pod on Instagram. [01:52:32] Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you for tuning in. And hey, special thank you to our special listeners. You know, who you are. We love you. Good night.